proof that Christian God exists

Date: 03-12-2011 7:56 pm (12 years ago) | Author: All the Audible
- at 3-12-2011 07:56 PM (12 years ago)
(f)
Step One: Laws of Logic
In the introduction page I mentioned 'logical proof.' The first step

towards the proof that God exists is to determine whether you

actually believe that laws of logic exist. Logical proof would be

irrelevant to someone who denies that laws of logic exist. An

example of a law of logic is the law of non-contradiction. This law

states, for instance, that it cannot both be true that my car is in

the parking lot and that it is not in the parking lot at the same

time, and in the same way.

Wat do you believe? Law of Logic Exists then lets go to law the next

step:

Step Two: Laws of Mathematics
The basic operations of arithmetic are addition, subtraction,

multiplication, and division. Laws of mathematics then, are

basically descriptions of what happens within these operations (and

more complex ones as well) . For example, with the law of addition

we know that if you take 4 things and add them to 3 things, you end

up with 7 things.

What do you believe? Law of mathematics exists, Lets go to the next

step...

Step Three: Laws of Science
Laws of science are basically descriptions of what matter does based

on repeated observations, and are usually expressed in mathematical

equations. An example of a law of science is the law of gravity.

Using the law of gravity, we can predict how fast a heavier than air

object will fall to the ground given all the factors for the

equation.

What do you believe? Law of Science Exists,Lets go into Next step.

Step Four: Absolute Moral Laws
I have seldom heard anyone deny that laws of logic, mathematics, or

science exist, but I have often heard people deny the existence of

absolute moral laws. Whereas some laws like those that govern

science, and mathematics describe reality, and how things do behave,

absolute moral laws 'prescribe' how humans ought to, or ought not to

behave.

Rape, and child molestation, are two examples of absolute moral

wrongs.

What do you believe? Absolute Moral laws exist

Step Five: The Nature of Laws (a)
By reaching this page you have acknowledged that laws of logic,

mathematics, science, and absolute morality exist. Next we will

examine what you believe about these laws. Are these laws material,

or are they immaterial? In other words, are they made of matter, or

are they 'abstract' entities? - are they physical or non-physical

things?

LAWS OF-Mathematics, Science, and Absolute Morality are

immaterial...

Step Six: The Nature of Laws (b)
You have acknowledged that laws of logic, mathematics, science, and

absolute morality exist and that they are not made of matter. The

next question is whether you believe they are universal or up to the

individual. Does 2 + 2 = 4 only where you are, and only because you

say it does, or is this a universal law?

LAWS OF- Logic, Mathematics, science and Absolute Morality are

Universal

Step Seven: The Nature of Laws (c)
You have acknowledged that laws of logic, mathematics, science, and

absolute morality exist, that they are not made of matter, and that

they are universal. The next question is whether you believe they

are changing or unchanging.

LAWS OF- Logic, Mathematics, science and Absolute Morality are

unchanging..

To reach this page you had to acknowledge that immaterial,

universal, unchanging laws of logic, mathematics, science, and

absolute morality exist. Universal, immaterial, unchanging laws are

necessary for rational thinking to be possible. Universal,

immaterial, unchanging laws cannot be accounted for if the universe

was random or only material in nature.

The Bible teaches us that there are 2 types of people in this world,

those who profess the truth of God's existence and those who

suppress the truth of God's existence. The options of 'seeking' God,

or not believing in God are unavailable. The Bible never attempts to

prove the existence of God as it declares that the existence of God

is so obvious that we are without excuse for not believing in Him.

Romans 1 vs. 18 - 21 says:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the

godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their

wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them,

because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the

world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine

nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been

made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God,

they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their

thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
The God of Christianity is the necessary starting point to make

sense of universal, abstract, invariant laws by the impossibility of

the contrary. These laws are necessary to prove ANYTHING.

Therefore...

Step 8: The proof that God exists

The Proof that God exists is that without Him you couldn't prove

anything.
Note that the proof does not say that professed unbelievers do not

prove things. The argument is that you must borrow from the

Christian worldview, and a God who makes universal, immaterial,

unchanging laws possible in order to prove anything.

This type of logical proof deals with ‘transcendentals’ or

‘necessary starting points,’ and the proof is called a

‘transcendental proof.’ Any contrary view to the God of Christianity

being the necessary starting point for rationality is reduced to

absurdity. You have to assume God in order to argue against Him.

Only the Christian worldview can logically support rationality.

How do Christians account for universal, immaterial, unchanging

laws?
Christians account for universal, immaterial, unchanging laws as

they reflect the very nature of God.

The Bible accounts for immaterial entities as in John 4 vs. 24 it

states: "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit

and in truth."

In Malachi 3 vs. 6 God says "I the Lord do not change." accounting

for His unchanging nature.

Psalm 90 vs. 2 states: "Before the mountains were born or you

brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to

everlasting, you are God." and Psalm 139 vs. 7 - 10 states: "Where

can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I

go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths,

you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on

the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your

right hand will hold me fast," accounting for God's universality.

The laws of logic, mathematics, science, and morality, reflect the

thinking and character of God and what He has created in order to

accomplish His purposes.

In Jeremiah 33 vs. 25 God speaks of how He has 'fixed the laws of

heaven and earth.' These universal, immaterial, unchanging laws are

the basis for all knowledge and are rooted in God's word. The

apostle Paul said in his letter to the Colossians: My purpose is

that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that

they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order

that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are

hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." (Chapter 2 vs. 2

- 3)

Of course everyone uses universal, immaterial, unchanging laws, but

many do so denying their only possible source. Christianity

proclaims the source which can be summarized with Christ's

declaration: "apart from me you can do nothing." (John 15 vs. 5)

What do you believe?

IF YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST

Denying the existence of God is not unbelief but an exercise in

self-deception. You may know things, but you cannot account for

anything you know. Arguing against God's existence would be on par

with arguing against the existence of air, breathing it all the

while. You use the universal, immaterial, unchanging laws of logic,

mathematics, science, and absolute morality in order to come to

rational decisions, but you cannot account for them. These laws are

not the only way God has revealed himself to you, but they are

sufficient to show the irrationality of your thinking, and expose

your guilt for denying Him.

There is a reason that you deny the existence of God and it has

nothing to do with proof. I can show this to you. Examine what your

initial reaction was to the proof of God's existence offered on this

website. Did you think that you could continue to deny God because

you are not a scientist, or philosopher but 'Surely somewhere,

sometime, a philosopher or scientist will come up with an

explanation for universal, immaterial, unchanging laws apart from

God?' Did you try to come up with an alternate explanation on your

own? OR Did you even consider that the proof was valid?

Hoping that an alternate explanation for universal, immaterial,

unchanging laws can someday be found apart from God, is a blind leap

of faith, or wishful thinking. Isn't it interesting that this is

exactly what professed unbelievers accuse Christians of?

Please examine the real reason why you are running from God. It is

my prayer that God will open your eyes and change your heart so that

you may be saved from your sin, embraced by His forgiving love, and

come to know the peace which passes all understanding.

Posted: at 3-12-2011 07:56 PM (12 years ago) | Upcoming
- CammyWhite at 3-12-2011 11:38 PM (12 years ago)
(f)
As I said elsewhere, this may be evidence for a Divine Power, but it says nothing about that power being Yahweh.
Posted: at 3-12-2011 11:38 PM (12 years ago) | Gistmaniac
Reply
- all_d_audible at 4-12-2011 04:13 PM (12 years ago)
(f)
Quote from: CammyWhite on  3-12-2011 11:38 PM
As I said elsewhere, this may be evidence for a Divine Power, but it says nothing about that power being Yahweh.

Did you try to come up with an alternate explanation on your own?

Answer me or be silent
Posted: at 4-12-2011 04:13 PM (12 years ago) | Upcoming
Reply
- ajepakoromance at 4-12-2011 04:32 PM (12 years ago)
(m)
@Poster,
I wish i had enough time to clear up your ignorance but still, am looking forward to.

Listen,  like you said, unbeliever problem is their unchanging stagnant nature.
Those laws you mention above has nothing to do with your subject and your God claim.
The must important laws in nature are 9 in numbers. Anyway don't have time to break anything down.
But listen, mathematics is the Synchronicity of  energy, space, time and shape.
Reality is a state of change caused by individual awareness or individualism consciousness also know as polarity awareness.
So, the fact that your God don't change, is to say that, your God is stagnant and lifeless. Thus your God is death. Even death is better of to your God, i only used death for lack of better word.  My point is this, get use to change and you will master all the 9 laws in nature, and have the power to control,  manipulate every other existence within and beyond mundane consciousness.
Posted: at 4-12-2011 04:32 PM (12 years ago) | Upcoming
Reply
- all_d_audible at 4-12-2011 07:07 PM (12 years ago)
(f)
Quote from: ajepakoromance on  4-12-2011 04:32 PM
@Poster,
I wish i had enough time to clear up your ignorance but still, am looking forward to.

Listen,  like you said, unbeliever problem is their unchanging stagnant nature.
Those laws you mention above has nothing to do with your subject and your God claim.
The must important laws in nature are 9 in numbers. Anyway don't have time to break anything down.
But listen, mathematics is the Synchronicity of  energy, space, time and shape.
Reality is a state of change caused by individual awareness or individualism consciousness also know as polarity awareness.
So, the fact that your God don't change, is to say that, your God is stagnant and lifeless. Thus your God is death. Even death is better of to your God, i only used death for lack of better word.  My point is this, get use to change and you will master all the 9 laws in nature, and have the power to control,  manipulate every other existence within and beyond mundane consciousness.

I am very glad to read your big grammars and vocabularies about what you know. But I will first like to start with the definition and example of change: What is change? change is defined as : Make or become different or To alter; to cause to pass from one state to another; as, to change the position, character, or appearance of a thing: "a proposal to change the law"; "beginning to change from green to gold". There are certain things that can not change in man and all living things which is the reality namely:

Growth,
reproduction,
excretion,
nutrition(feeding),
movement,
respiration,
digestion,
irritation(response)
Death* (An instance of a person or an animal dying) etc

Either you like it or not, even if you change and and change you cannot escape the above laws which is same thing as 2 + 2 = 4. This is what could be called laws of reality. This is what I mean that God does not change. God knows when you are lying or saying the truth, he knows when your intentions are true and when not. *I placed a star on death because God is immortal and cannot fall under the characteristics of man. But I have a good news that  after Jesus Christ the Son of God rose from the Dead, Jesus is still raising the dead till now; simply because he swallowed death up in victory:

Secondly, Your definition to reality is 100% wrong,  1st, tell me where you get that definition of reality? from which dictionary? (you see I have cancelled it because what you wrote has nothing to do with reality. In order words my beloved reality is NOT a state of change caused by individual awareness or individualism consciousness also know as polarity awareness. You will not fail your exams or interview in Jesus name...Amen

This is the true definition of REALITY:

Reality is simply defined as the following

1.  The world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them: "he refuses to face reality".
2. A thing that is actually experienced or seen, esp. when this is grim or problematic: "the harsh realities of life".
3. The quality or state of being actual or true.
4. That which exists objectively and in fact: Your observations do not seem to be about reality.

I want you to know that we are all learned people, Please and please it is very important to give a good reference to whatever you are defending. The above true definitions of reality connects together with one another to explain what reality is all about. Jesus Christ exists, he is seen, He is the truth, he is the reality of life and the trues witness of God the creator...I have Jesus and I am happy...Though ten thousands of Enemies surround me, in this will rejoice, because a Life without Jesus is empty. He is the epitome of beauty, an emblem of love. Why don't you come to him and accept him as your Lord and savior and He will deliver you from all your heavy burden. he said in his lovely words that "Come to me, all you who weary with heavy burdened, and *I* will give you rest", All he needs is your heart, and he will fill it with joy, grace and mercy...Come come...come...he loves you..

Posted: at 4-12-2011 07:07 PM (12 years ago) | Upcoming
Reply
- CammyWhite at 4-12-2011 09:25 PM (12 years ago)
(f)
Quote from: all_d_audible on  4-12-2011 04:13 PM
Did you try to come up with an alternate explanation on your own?

Answer me or be silent

You're falling into a familiar trap there - assuming that if you're not proven wrong, you must be right.

I can also say that your evidence, while very well put, doesn't prove anything about Yahweh or Yeshua at all.
Posted: at 4-12-2011 09:25 PM (12 years ago) | Gistmaniac
Reply
- ajepakoromance at 4-12-2011 09:47 PM (12 years ago)
(m)
@all_d_audible.
You are correct with your definition to change. Change is a state of alteration, transmute and transformation.
You said, ''There are certain things that can not change in man and all living things which is the reality namely,
Growth,
reproduction,
excretion,
nutrition(feeding),
movement,
respiration,
digestion,
irritation(response)
Death* (An instance of a person or an animal dying) etc.''

I don't know if you can see that, what you do is, complicate yourself. Change is a state of alteration and transformation, and according to chemistry '' Change is the only constant. The conservation of mass. The conservation of energy, And the entropy of the universe are state of change. Thus its logic to say, change is inevitable and is the only Constant!. Infact, most of the challenges we face in life is when we resist change.

To tackle your point. Atom, matter, caborn and cell are animal nature. This four elements are a different state of energy. Growth, reproduction, excretion, and death are state of transformation. Respiration, movement, digestion and nutrition are state of alteration. The law of vibration state, everything is in motion, everything vibrates, and nothing is at rest. Why?. Bcus of energy. Therefor change is a state of energy interaction. So its either we take in or give out, known as law of correspondence. As a matter of fact, the simplest example i will give you is death. Nothing dies, its just a state of transformation.

Your definition on reality is very correct, so is mine too. The sun shines from one particular direction everyday, but not everybody sees it at same particular time. The reason why me and you are human is bcus of our individualism [ ego and pride]. There is nothing wrong in this, but its our responsibility to navigate within every other experiences without restrain and blockage. Holding to one particular experience, culture, philosophy, idea, religion ext, is refusing change. This stagnant is the cause of ignorance, judgmental, fear and ext. No one is right, every one is right. Truth is nothing but individual awareness.


Posted: at 4-12-2011 09:47 PM (12 years ago) | Upcoming
Reply
- all_d_audible at 5-12-2011 01:16 AM (12 years ago)
(f)
Quote from: CammyWhite on  4-12-2011 09:25 PM
You're falling into a familiar trap there - assuming that if you're not proven wrong, you must be right.

I can also say that your evidence, while very well put, doesn't prove anything about Yahweh or Yeshua at all.

It is universally agreed that 'history are written by champions" all what is happening today about illuminati, Boko Haram, 666, computer chip, Uk, NATO, ARAB league, Earthquake, wars, democracy revolution in the middle east (NWO - New World order) etc are all written and predicted by the ONLY the Bible. Jesus said in Mark 13:7 - But when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be not disturbed, for this must happen, but the end is not yet. This is history written by champions ...not by wars and force...Only if you can read the Bible through then you can understand. What History do you have as a prove that Jesus (Jeshua) and Yaweh does not exist? But you believe that the Devil exist. except you want to keep arguing for nothing. what about the shroud of tourin found at the tomb of Jesus?. Well, You believe in what scientist says...but you forgot that scientist gave you all these figures by trial and error (experiments) but not history. They did not see the dating of isotope with their naked eyes but by help of computers which is man made, I don't say they are wrong in their findings but they can't be omni-knowledge like the creator they never met dinosaurs before, nor can they prove the formation of the whole earth. In the history of evolution, some said we were fish, some said we were apes, some said we were first lizard...tomorrow another person will bring another idea and it will be reviewed and believed by people, then they will change every other things being thought before. Why have they find it difficult to add life into an empty body they built for so many years if they can counter what Jesus did easily many times by raising the dead body? he rose lazarus a buried dead man of three days from the dead, John 11:43 - 44 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. is that a magic? I have read of many people who pretended to die for three days (they even put holes in the ground) and bury themselves with Air condition in their coffin but they never made it to live (they died). But Jesus died and arose the third day..Not only can he raise dead but he arose by himself and show himself to everybody to see - John 20:30 -21:1 -Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book(Bible), But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself..,  And there are many things which are yet to be discovered by science but God knows them all from the beginning. Jeremiah 1:5 reads "I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my prophet to the nations." To let you know that God knows all things.... Jesus Christ himself said this while he was on hear in Luke 12:7 - And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows. He is broke the law of gravity by ascending into heaven in the sight of thousands of people watching without help of airplane or any projectile, He did it because he has the power beyond what you and I could see... 2Cor 4:18 reads that While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. No matter what, this world will come to an end one day...not long ago i read on yahoo/msn news that the world population is becoming too much, and there will be famine in some land due to food shortage...there will be war due to differences..and global warming etc..it has already been predicted in the Bible, that these things will happens these years....Luke 16:13 Jesus said - “There is no servant who can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will honor the one and he will neglect the other. You cannot serve God and money - Seek first God's kingdom and its righteousness FIRST and wealth will be added unto you (matt 6:33) Why don't you bow down your kneels and accept him as your Lord and savior. Just say this loud: LORD JESUS, I NOW BELIEVE IN YOU AS THE SON OF GOD, BE MY LORD AND SAVIOR, FORGIVE ME MY SINS AND CLEANSE ME WITH YOUR BLOOD. HAVE MERCY ON ME AND DELIVER ME FROM ALL MY BONDAGE AND PROBLEMS. I REMAIN LOYAL AND I LOVE YOU AND MAKE THE WORLD TO KNOW YOU LOVE THEM TOO. THANKS FOR ANSWERING ME. IN JESUS NAME. AMEN. He will come into your life and abide in you. Look for any living church..eg Redeemed or Deeper Life (recommended) and  study your Bible. God bless you Amen
Posted: at 5-12-2011 01:16 AM (12 years ago) | Upcoming
Reply
- CammyWhite at 5-12-2011 08:47 AM (12 years ago)
(f)
That's a lot to refer back to...

illuminati - not you as well! This is a full-blown myth.
Boko Haram, Uk, NATO, ARAB league, computer chip, democracy revolution in the middle east  - predicted where in the Bible exactly?
666 - it's actually a coded reference to Nero Caesar, not some modern Antichrist.
Earthquake, wars - safest predictions to make ever.
NWO - New World order - you really have to tie the Bible in knots to say there was a prediction of this!

"what about the shroud of tourin found at the tomb of Jesus?" - the Shroud of Turin wasn't found there; it first turns up in medieval France.

"In the history of evolution, some said we were fish, some said we were apes, some said we were first lizard..." - you really don't know anything about evolution!

"he rose lazarus a buried dead man of three days from the dead" - outside the Bible, we have no proof Lazarus even existed.

"He is broke the law of gravity by ascending into heaven in the sight of thousands of people watching" - outside the Bible, we have no proof it ever happened.

"Jesus died and arose the third day..Not only can he raise dead but he arose by himself and show himself to everybody to see" - again, outside the Bible, we have no proof it ever happened.

As I said before, if you demand proof for your own faith, then you're not really comfortable with it.


Posted: at 5-12-2011 08:47 AM (12 years ago) | Gistmaniac
Reply
- all_d_audible at 5-12-2011 04:20 PM (12 years ago)
(f)
That’s Amazing
Keep in mind that it would be amazing if there was an ancient record of Jesus outside of the Bible. Jesus lived over 2000 years ago. He is an ANCIENT figure from history, and there are some things that we need to remember about historical figures and events from this period of time:
 
1. There are amazingly few manuscripts of ANY text written during Jesus' time
2. Historians of this period wrote amazingly little about religious figures anyway
3. Jesus was active for an amazingly short period of time (just three years)
4. Jesus ministered in an amazingly remote corner of the Roman Empire
 
Now, given that these facts are true about the life of Jesus and the people who were recording history two thousand years ago, it would be surprising to find much ancient material related to Jesus at all. But, there ARE a number of ancient non-biblical records that tell of Jesus! Let’s take a look at some of them and let’s try to reconstruct what they tell us about Jesus. Let’s pretend like there are NO remaining Biblical records about Jesus. Imagine that all of them were destroyed. Let’s see what we can reconstruct not from people who loved Jesus, but from hostile eye-witnesses (people who did NOT love Jesus). Remember, that hostile eyewitnesses are sometimes the best witnesses we can have. While they may try their best to interpret what they see in a negative way, they confirm, at least, basic facts about the existence of the man we know as Jesus Christ.

Hostile Non-Biblical Pagan Witnesses
There are a number of ancient classical accounts of Jesus from pagan Greek sources. These accounts are generally hostile to Christianity and try to explain away the miraculous nature of Jesus and the events that surrounded his life. Let’s look at these hostile accounts and see what they tell us about Jesus:
 
Thallus (52AD)
Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient that his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who had previously tried to explain away the darkness that occurred at the point of Jesus’ crucifixion:
 
"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun." (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)
 
If only more of Thallus’ record could be found, we would see that every aspect of Jesus’ life could be verified with a non-biblical source. But there are some things we can conclude from this account: Jesus lived, he was crucified, and there was an earthquake and darkness at the point of his crucifixion.
 
Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)
Early Christians are also described in secular history. Pliny the Younger, in a letter to the Roman emperor Trajan, describes the lifestyles of early Christians:
 
"They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."
 
This EARLY description of the first Christians documents several facts: the first Christians believed that Jesus was GOD, the first Christians upheld a high moral code, and these early followers et regularly to worship Jesus.
 
Suetonius (69-140AD)
Suetonius was a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. His writings about Christians describe their treatment under the Emperor Claudius (41-54AD):
 
"Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he (Claudius) expelled them from the city (Rome)." (Life of Claudius, 25:4)
 
This expulsion took place in 49AD, and in another work, Suetonius wrote about the fire which destroyed Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians for this fire and he punished Christians severely as a result:
 
"Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief." (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2)
 
There is much we can learn from Suetonius as it is related to the life of early Christians. From this very EARLY account, we know that Jesus had an immediate impact on his followers. They believed that Jesus was God enough to withstand the torment and punishment of the Roman Empire. Jesus had a curious and immediate impact on his followers, empowering them to die courageously for what they knew to be true.
 
Tacitus (56-120AD)
Cornelius Tacitus was known for his analysis and examination of historical documents and is among the most trusted of ancient historians. He was a senator under Emperor Vespasian and was also proconsul of Asia. In his “Annals’ of 116AD, he describes Emperor Nero’s response to the great fire in Rome and Nero’s claim that the Christians were to blame:
 
"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."
 
In this account, Tacitus confirms for us that Jesus lived in Judea, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and had followers who were persecuted for their faith in Christ.
 
Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)
Sometime after 70AD, a Syrian philosopher named Mara Bar-Serapion, writing to encourage his son, compared the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas. The fact that Jesus is known to be a real person with this kind of influence is important. As a matter of fact, Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the “Wise King”:
 
"What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?...After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men...The wise king...Lived on in the teachings he enacted."
 
From this account, we can add to our understanding of Jesus. We can conclude that Jesus was a wise and influential man who died for his beliefs. We can also conclude that his followers adopted these beliefs and lived lives that reflected them to the world in which they lived.
 
Phlegon (80-140AD)
In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:
 
"Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour." (Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)
 
Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):
 
“Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 14)

“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place ... ” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33)

“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)
 
From these accounts, we can add something to our understand of Jesus and conclude that Jesus had the ability to accurately predict the future, was crucified under the reign of Tiberius Caesar and demonstrated his wounds after he was resurrected!
   
Lucian of Samosata: (115-200 A.D.)
Lucian was a Greek satirist who spoke sarcastically of Christ and Christians, but in the process, he did affirm that they were real people and never referred to them as fictional characters:
 
"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account....You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property." (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13)
 
From this account we can add to our description and conclude that Jesus taught about repentance and about the family of God. These teachings were quickly adopted by Jesus’ followers and exhibited to the world around them.
Posted: at 5-12-2011 04:20 PM (12 years ago) | Upcoming
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- all_d_audible at 5-12-2011 04:52 PM (12 years ago)
(f)

Hostile Non-Biblical Jewish Witnesses
In addition to classical ‘pagan’ sources that chronicle the life of Jesus and his followers, there are also a number of ancient hostile Jewish sources that talk about Jesus. These are written by Jewish theologians, historians and leaders who were definitely NOT sympathetic to the Christian cause. Their writings are often VERY harsh, critical and even demeaning to Jesus. But there is still much that these writings confirm.
 
Josephus (37-101AD)
In more detail than any other non-biblical historian, Josephus writes about Jesus in his “the Antiquities of the Jews” in 93AD. Josephus was born just four years after the crucifixion. He was a consultant for Jewish rabbis at age thirteen, was a Galilean military commander by the age of sixteen, and he was an eyewitness to much of what he recorded in the first century A.D. Under the rule of roman emperor Vespasian, Josephus was allowed to write a history of the Jews. This history includes three passages about Christians, one in which he describes the death of John the Baptist, one in which he mentions the execution of James and describes him as the brother of Jesus the Christ, and a final passage which describes Jesus as a wise man and the messiah. Now there is much controversy about the writing of Josephus, because the first discoveries of his writings are late enough to have been re-written by Christians, who are accused of making additions to the text. So to be fair, let’s take a look at a scholarly reconstruction that has removed all the possible Christian influence from the text related to Jesus:
 
“Now around this time lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was a worker of amazing deeds and was a teacher of people who gladly accept the truth. He won over both many Jews and many Greeks. Pilate, when he heard him accused by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, (but) those who had first loved him did not cease (doing so). To this day the tribe of Christians named after him has not disappeared” (This neutral reconstruction follows closely the one proposed in the latest treatment by John Meier, Marginal Jew 1:61)
 
Now there are many other ancient versions of Josephus’ writing which are even more explicit about the nature of his miracles, his life and his status as the Christ, but let’s take this conservative version and see what we can learn. From this text, we can conclude that Jesus lived in Palestine, was a wise man and a teacher, worked amazing deeds, was accused buy the Jews, crucified under Pilate and had followers called Christians!
Posted: at 5-12-2011 04:52 PM (12 years ago) | Upcoming
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- all_d_audible at 5-12-2011 04:55 PM (12 years ago)
(f)
A Hostile Summary
OK, let’s review everything we have learned from hostile pagan and Jewish sources that tell us something about this man called Jesus. We’ll do our best to discount the bias that we see in the sources, just as we discounted the pro-Christian bias we think might exist in some versions of the writing of Josephus. But even with the most modest and conservative of reviews, we could write this about Jesus from purely NON-BIBLICAL ancient sources:
 
Jesus was born and lived in Palestine. He was born, supposedly, to a virgin and had an earthly father who was a carpenter. He was a teacher who taught that by repentance and belief, all followers would become brothers and sisters. He led the Jews away from their beliefs. He was a wise man who claimed to be God and the Messiah. He had unusual magical powers and performed miraculous deeds. He healed the lame. He accurately predicted the future. He was persecuted by the Jews for what he said, betrayed by Judah Iskarioto. He was beaten with rods, forced to drink vinegar and wear a crown of thorns and crucified on the eve of the Passover. His crucifixion occurred under the direction of Pontius Pilate, during the time of Tiberius. On the day of his crucifixion, the sky grew dark and there was an earthquake. Afterward, he was buried in a tomb and the tomb was later found to be empty. He appeared to his disciples resurrected from the grave and showed them his wounds. These disciples then told others that Jesus was resurrected and ascended into heaven. Jesus' disciples and followers upheld a high moral code. One of them was named Matthai. The disciples were also persecuted for their faith but were martyred without changing their claims. They met regularly to worship Jesus, even after his death.
 
That’s Pretty Amazing
Now think about this reconstruction for a minute. This is a TON of information about the man we know as Jesus and all of it comes from witnesses who were HOSTILE to the truth claims of Christianity! And from ANCIENT sources, none the less! Now let’s go back to what we know about the time in which Jesus lived and the climate in which historians and theologians were writing. Remember that:
 
1. There are amazingly few manuscripts of ANY text written during Jesus' time
2. Historians of this period wrote amazingly little about religious figures anyway
3. Jesus was active for an amazingly short period of time (just three years)
4. Jesus ministered in an amazingly remote corner of the Roman Empire
 
The key word here in “AMAZING”! it is amazing that there is ANY extra-Biblical information about Jesus at all, let alone this MUCH information about Him. That’s why so many of us who have come to trust that Jesus really did live and really was who He said He was, find that the hostile historical witness is a powerful evidence of the truth of the Bible.
Posted: at 5-12-2011 04:55 PM (12 years ago) | Upcoming
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- all_d_audible at 5-12-2011 04:56 PM (12 years ago)
(f)
 Grin I still say many thanks to your question,  it is a really important one. Establishing the truth of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead is vital (see 1 Cor 15:17) and I’m really glad you are thinking through it.

Outside of the Bible, there is almost no direct evidence for Jesus’ resurrection. That might not be as surprising as it seems, because from the Bible’s record of Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances, he seemed to have shown himself mainly to believers. For example, he showed himself to the disciples in the first week (John 20), and to more than five hundred of disciples (1 Cor 15:6). In Acts 1:1-3, Luke indicates that Jesus appeared mainly to the apostles during the 40 days between his resurrection and ascension to heaven. If Jesus did indeed rise but showed himself only to believers, it follows that the main witness to his resurrection will be in the Bible rather than outside the Bible.

So I will propose another way to think through this question. This approach centers on the empty tomb of Jesus. Although there is no direct evidence for Jesus’ resurrection, there is evidence for the empty tomb of Jesus. Most historians do not dispute the fact that the tomb of Jesus was empty and that his body was never found. Therefore the pertinent questions we should ask is now: why is the tomb empty? There have been various alternatives put forward to explain this, some of which are:

(1)Jesus did not die: he only fainted. Considering what we know about the Roman world in the first century (the soldiers are highly trained and they faced severe penalties if they did not execute their tasks), it is not very plausible that they would make a basic mistake such as not finishing the job of crucifying Jesus on the cross. Moreover, even if Jesus did not die on the cross, it is unlikely he was able to, in his weakened state, roll the stone of the tomb away (Matt 27:60) and fight away the Roman soldiers guarding the place (Matt 27:65)

(2)The resurrection appearances to disciples are their hallucinations. The main problem with this thesis is that these supposed hallucinations appeared to many different people, over different times and in different locations. Medically, it is hard to conceive of such an overwhelming uniform hallucination happening to so many.

(3)The disciples went to the wrong grave. However, even if they did go to the wrong tomb the first time, it is unlikely that all the others who subsequently investigated the matter would have gone to the wrong tomb. This is especially as the Jewish and Roman authorities then were extremely keen for the"lie of the resurrection" to be put to rest: they could easily just have gone to the right tomb, retrieved the body and exposed the lie of the disciples! But over 2000 years, there haven’t been any one who could produce the"right tomb" or body.

(4)Someone stole the body. Firstly, it is extremely difficult to steal the body, with the stone and the Roman guard. Secondly, there aren’t many groups with the incentive to do it: the Jews and the Romans vehemently wanted the body to stay where it was (see above). The most likely possibility would be the disciples: see next point:

(5)Disciples stole the body. This is by far the strongest alternative theory to the resurrection. However, it has a fatal flaw. If the disciples were the ones who stole the body and make the false claim of resurrection, what did they gain from it? Most of the disciples were persecuted and died horrible deaths. They died for their belief that they saw Jesus’ die and rise again. It is unimaginable that they would die willingly for something that they know to be a lie (this is different from someone dying for something they believe in without knowing it to be a lie eg cult suicides).

As we think through the puzzle of the empty tomb, it appears that the best conclusion is the resurrection. The main objection people have to that is that miracles like that don’t happen. However, if there really is a God who is sovereign over the world he has created, it will be a small thing for him to give life to the dead. Thus this objection does not stand. We can thus have confidence in the Bible’s witness to the resurrection of Jesus. The Bible’s reliability is again underpinned by the disciples’ willingness to die: they used their lives to certify that what they are writing down, they have truly seen (but to fully expand on this aspect is the scope of another question!). So even though there is no corroboration from other sources, I believe we can fully rely on the Bible’s witness to the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.
Posted: at 5-12-2011 04:56 PM (12 years ago) | Upcoming
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- CammyWhite at 5-12-2011 09:25 PM (12 years ago)
(f)
I'll leave Democrazy to tackle most of this lot. He seems to have ample time - when he's not exposing conspiracies, that is.  Roll Eyes

Quote
Although there is no direct evidence for Jesus’ resurrection, there is evidence for the empty tomb of Jesus. Most historians do not dispute the fact that the tomb of Jesus was empty and that his body was never found.

Huh? An empty tomb is an empty tomb. How can it be any proof that someone particular was buried there? There's nothing about anything like inscriptions or similar to establish whose tomb it was.
Posted: at 5-12-2011 09:25 PM (12 years ago) | Gistmaniac
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