The Dogma of Trinity (Page 2)

Date: 19-01-2011 12:30 am (14 years ago) | Author: Musa Yusuf
1 [2]
- cadanre at 31-01-2011 04:17 PM (14 years ago)
(f)
Quote from: chik001 on 28-01-2011 03:54 AM
Quote from: cadanre on 27-01-2011 08:02 PM
You have to understand that quoting the corrupt and absurd Bible written by many unknown people cannot be accepted.

...you use the same corrupt Bible written by unknown people to prove the prophethood of Muhammed...
How many religion or prophets use the Koran as a proof or basis to their foundation... Huh?...NONE...only The Ahmadiyah...who in their own right had replace Prophet Mohammed with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad...
...sorry dude...you are many trillionth times less than theories, philosophies, atheist and critics who have tried to discredit the Almighty Holy Bible...

Check this out…
The Bible is living and powerful…it contains vital elements that are not found in any other book…The Bible is faithful…broad…right… wonderful… pure…everlasting…righteous…and profitable (Psalms 119; 19 and 2 Timothy 3:16).


THAT IS HOW YOU ALWAYS MISSED THE BASIC POINT OF DISCUSSION. I ONCE TOLD YOU THAT WE QUOTE THE BIBLE TO YOU BECAUSE IT IS WHAT YOU BELIEVED IN. IT IS WHAT YOU TRUST AND MUSLIMS' STAND IS CLEAR ON WHY THEY MISTRUST THE BIBLE YOU PEOPLE ARE CURRENTLY USING. IT IS FULL OF ABSURDITIES, FALLACIES AND TOOOOO MUCH HUMAN ALTERATIONS. I BEGAN TO TELL YOU HOW ABSURD AND HOW CORRUPT IT IS, AND I'LL CONTINUE......... READY?

Posted: at 31-01-2011 04:17 PM (14 years ago) | Hero
Reply
- chik001 at 31-01-2011 05:24 PM (14 years ago)
(m)
Quote from: cadanre on 31-01-2011 04:17 PM
Quote from: chik001 on 28-01-2011 03:54 AM
Quote from: cadanre on 27-01-2011 08:02 PM
You have to understand that quoting the corrupt and absurd Bible written by many unknown people cannot be accepted.

...you use the same corrupt Bible written by unknown people to prove the prophethood of Muhammed...
How many religion or prophets use the Koran as a proof or basis to their foundation... Huh?...NONE...only The Ahmadiyah...who in their own right had replace Prophet Mohammed with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad...
...sorry dude...you are many trillionth times less than theories, philosophies, atheist and critics who have tried to discredit the Almighty Holy Bible...

Check this out…
The Bible is living and powerful…it contains vital elements that are not found in any other book…The Bible is faithful…broad…right… wonderful… pure…everlasting…righteous…and profitable (Psalms 119; 19 and 2 Timothy 3:16).


THAT IS HOW YOU ALWAYS MISSED THE BASIC POINT OF DISCUSSION. I ONCE TOLD YOU THAT WE QUOTE THE BIBLE TO YOU BECAUSE IT IS WHAT YOU BELIEVED IN. IT IS WHAT YOU TRUST AND MUSLIMS' STAND IS CLEAR ON WHY THEY MISTRUST THE BIBLE YOU PEOPLE ARE CURRENTLY USING. IT IS FULL OF ABSURDITIES, FALLACIES AND TOOOOO MUCH HUMAN ALTERATIONS. I BEGAN TO TELL YOU HOW ABSURD AND HOW CORRUPT IT IS, AND I'LL CONTINUE......... READY?

..you repeat the same thing over and over again...without bringing any satisfactory or objective claims...Point out your confusion...em, sorry...the absurdities and Human alterations...
any absurdities...or...errors you find in the The Holy Bible is due to your personal delusion or lack of understanding...
The Holy Bible is a spiritual book...talking about a Holy and Spiritual God...and...

...God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth...John 4:24
Posted: at 31-01-2011 05:24 PM (14 years ago) | Gistmaniac
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- cadanre at 7-02-2011 10:50 AM (14 years ago)
(f)
@ chik0000000000000001

Stop deliberately dodging my questions and responses. Stop deliberately confusing yourself for you can only confuse yourself not me. If you are trying to tell me that you do not understand what I mean let me ask you one question...... WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY The Holy Bible is a spiritual book...

Posted: at 7-02-2011 10:50 AM (14 years ago) | Hero
Reply
- ganster-kid at 7-02-2011 02:41 PM (14 years ago)
(m)
Quote from: cadanre on 27-01-2011 08:02 PM
You have to understand that quoting the corrupt and absurd Bible written by many unknown people cannot be accepted.


 so that your koran was only written by your mohammed, nawaooo, and he told you to fight and kill ppl that don't believe in that his book and you all believed him, quite amazing Wink Wink Wink
Posted: at 7-02-2011 02:41 PM (14 years ago) | Upcoming
Reply
- cadanre at 7-02-2011 07:18 PM (14 years ago)
(f)
Quote from: ganster-kid on  7-02-2011 02:41 PM
Quote from: cadanre on 27-01-2011 08:02 PM
You have to understand that quoting the corrupt and absurd Bible written by many unknown people cannot be accepted.


 so that your koran was only written by your mohammed, nawaooo, and he told you to fight and kill ppl that don't believe in that his book and you all believed him, quite amazing Wink Wink Wink

Muhammad did not write the Qur'an. But let me ask you. WHO WROTE THE BIBLE?

Posted: at 7-02-2011 07:18 PM (14 years ago) | Hero
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- Romanos at 8-02-2011 12:39 AM (14 years ago)
(m)
Αγιος ο Θεός, Αγιος Ισχυρός, Αγιος Αθάνατος, ελέησον ημάς.
Aghios o Theós, Aghios Is’chyrós, Aghios Athánatos, eléïson imás.
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!


One only is Holy, but He is God, He is Mighty, and He is Deathless. Not three Holies, but One, we know Him as God the Father, as His Mighty Son, and as His Deathless Holy Spirit. Even in this most ancient of all prayer cries, the undivided Triad is manifest. The undivided Trinity, as believed in and lived in the Holy Church for, yes, we do not presume to know the how, but the Who, of God.

We know that God is One. This is no secret even to the polytheist if he is a thinking man. Humankind did not evolve an idea of One God by gradually adding spirit to spirit, god to god, by a sort of mathematical reduction. If anyone has arrived at the idea of such a ‘one god’ in this fashion, that ‘god’ is certainly not the God of the Bible, not the God of Jesus Christ.

No, for the only God that is, the self-existing Divine Nature, revealed through His manifold works, the material universe and seen by the mind of rational men, was at the beginning with man, just as the Bible tells in the story of Adam and Eve and the original paradise. ‘The man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as He was walking in the garden in the cool of the day…’ (Genesis 3:Cool.

It was the devil’s envy that brought death into the world, as well as the worship of many gods. Man devolved from relational monotheism to religious polytheism. Religion in the Garden of Eden? Hardly! What would be the need? There God walked with man and spoke to us face to face. Religion only came upon our race as sickness comes, a sickness called sin that brings death.

Human beings the world over have always believed in the immortality of the soul, but this is an unfounded belief. It is more of a hope, and a vain hope, as there is no proof in nature of our personal survival of death. ‘Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?’ (Ecclesiastes 3:21). We find ancient graves well-stocked for living somewhere.

Almost all religions believe something like this: ‘The soul of man is immortal and cannot die.’ This is what you find among Hindus, for example, who believe what is taught by their god Krishna, ‘That which pervades the entire body you should know to be indestructible. No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul’ (Bhagavad Gita 2:17). For them, the ‘imperishable soul’ lives on through reincarnation.

For others, especially in East Asia, the souls of their ancestors are alive ‘somewhere’ and must be appeased, cared for, and helped. This is the most prevalent belief of most of humanity. In the three ‘Abrahamic’ faiths, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, this belief takes on added content: the good ‘go to heaven’ at death, the bad ‘go to hell.’ This is, of course, at the level of popular religion.

As C. S. Lewis has written, ‘To believe in the popular religion of modern England is retrogression — like believing the earth is flat’ (Mere Christianity, Book 4, Chapter 1), and the same is true of the popular religion of the biblically illiterate everywhere. For many people, it’s just not worth the time and effort to learn and understand the truths of faith, what man is, who God is, and how He deals with us.

The soul of man, despite our wishful thinking, our pious hopes, and our individual speculations, is not immortal by nature. Only One is Immortal, just as only One is God, and only One is Mighty. Having been originally made in His image, our first parents shared in the Divine Nature, in Might, and in Immortality, but by their rebellion, the image of God in them and us was broken.

We are born into a fallen world, disfigured, that is, dis-imaged, damaged, and what would have been an immortal soul in us, is immortal no longer, by nature.

We live and move and have our being only in God, only by His grace, only by His gift, only by His remembrance of us. Why else do we find in the psalms the petition to ‘remember us’, why else did the thief say to Christ, ‘remember me’?

We are living souls only by the good will of our Creator, who remembers us in life and in death. The soul of man, as it turns out, is immortal after all, but not by nature. Our lives are in His hands. Whether we are alive in the body or gone to ‘be with the Lord’, it is all by His will, by His mercy. How totally we are dependent on Him for everything! Knowing He loves us removes the fear of death.

When we pray the Trisagion, ‘Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!’ how true this prayer is, how wonderful that it has been revealed to us! We can depend on God, in fact He expects us to depend on Him, for everything, especially for our earthly life, and for the immortality that only He can grant us. There is so much more I would say if I could, but all I can say is, Thank You, Lord.

Posted: at 8-02-2011 12:39 AM (14 years ago) | Newbie
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- Romanos at 8-02-2011 12:44 AM (14 years ago)
(m)
Human society has been evolving over the centuries from very integrated, homogeneous populations with little or no individual liberties under authoritarian rulers, to very diverse populations with almost unlimited individual freedoms under representative, limited rulers.

The first model of society, a patriarchal monarchy, was an enlarged version of the patriarchal nuclear family. Father rules, mother supports and advises, children obey and are mentored by both. Father’s religion, his political beliefs, his ethics are passed on to mother and children, all questions barred. Hence, the early states of human culture.

Hebrew society, homogeneous, and kept so by pruning, as needed. Greco-Roman society, far less homogeneous, but still held uniform by use of force, even brutal force. Christian society, again more homogeneous like its Hebrew ancestor, and kept so by authoritarian structures modeled on the nuclear family, as before.

Christian society, having within itself something new that was also nascent in Hebrew and Greco-Roman society, the concept of individual as opposed to group identity, evolved and continues to evolve into a society which grows more diverse and individualistic, undermining the bases of all prior human societies.

It has been assumed since the beginning of the age of revolutions (probably the Puritan revolution in England, perhaps earlier) that there is such a thing as human rights, and by that it is assumed, individual rights. With each succeeding revolution, 1688 in England, 1776 in America, 1789, 1830 and 1848 in France, this concept of the individual as paramount, even over every earthly power or authority, has grown in strength and momentum.

Most of these ideas of individual liberty find their origin in the bible, specifically the New Testament. Why, then, the rise of Christian societies that were still every bit as authoritarian and ignorant or contemptuous of human rights as their predecessors? There is a tension in the gospel which is in fact inherited from the Hebrew prophets between the individual and society, both seeming to make demands on us, ethically. It’s this tension, or ambiguity, that lies at the root of what is currently happening in modern society.

Traditional society is based on the family. Modern society is based on the individual. Where does Christian society fit into this, and is there even such a thing?

It goes even further back than this. Traditional societies are organic in the same way that the bodies of complex life forms are organic. The individual cells in a human body have different functions, but none of them has the right to go its own way. None can leave the body, except by death. Dead cells are excreted and replaced by new. Again, the cells in a complex life form have no free will. They are what they are by coming into being as part of an organism.

Modern societies are, from this viewpoint, inorganic. They are something like clusters of single celled organisms that can stay together, creating an illusion of society, but which can go their own way, or even operate against an enveloping cluster in which they find themselves engulfed.

The seemingly unstoppable momentum of modern world society, evolving from traditional, organic societies with little individualism, to a single inorganic one in which individualism is the priority, is actually an illusion. What is happening is, non-individuals are being converted into individuals momentarily, so that they can be reincorporated into a new authoritarian anti-individualism even more brutal than the worst of those seen earlier in history.

The world wants to be a society of individuals with total liberty, and that makes true society impossible, because individual wills seek their own good, not the good of society. The only way, then, to have any semblance or illusion of society at all is to impose authority once again, and there is no way to do this other than by violence to the individual in one form or another.

Nascent within Christian society, even from its beginnings, is the society described by the prophets of Israel, and realized by the first disciples of Jesus Christ. For lack of a better term, I will call this “true society.” Later on, I will give it its proper name.

True society looks like traditional society because it is organic, based on nature, but that is only the beginning. True society has perfect individual liberty, because every individual will is attuned to and voluntarily in agreement with one Mind. Individual wills seek the good of society because they want to, not because they must. Why would they want to? Because love binds them together, not force. Where is there such a society, if it exists?

The life of the Holy Triad is exactly that kind of society. That life was hidden from mankind until the coming of one of the divine Persons in that Triad, namely Jesus Christ, to earth. In His life and commandments we see the possibility of true society, of living the life of heaven on earth, which is the life inherent in the Holy Triad.

This is the society that we were made for, at once patriarchal, familial, ordered, yet providing the greatest degree of personal, individual liberty. Christ came to free us from our passions, and He has accomplished that work in those who follow Him.

This is no “giving us freedom to take it away again.” That is the game of religion. No, the very life of the Holy Triad is open to us, we too can be One just as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are One. That is the essence of Jesus’ high-priestly prayer for us.

The world will continue moving in the direction of greater and greater “freedom” towards a destination of totalitarian chaos, as organic and living society devolves into inorganic and dead society. It has already realized that it cannot have it both ways, and so the machine has begun to take over the functions of the living man.

We who are in Christ, brethren, are moving in the opposite direction, as death is being put to death in us, and we are being raised to life like the son of the widow of Nain.

That procession was heading for the graveyard. Jesus and His disciples were going the other way, and He took death captive, releasing a dead man to life. Let us love one another, and insist on nothing less than living the life of the Holy Triad, the only true society unto the ages of ages.

Posted: at 8-02-2011 12:44 AM (14 years ago) | Newbie
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- Romanos at 8-02-2011 12:48 AM (14 years ago)
(m)
I don’t believe one has to understand or even know all that can be understood and known about the Godhead, even such essential doctrines as the Trinity, to be saved. Salvation happens when any soul turns sincerely and uniquely to Jesus as its Savior, and that is the core out of which all other experience, knowledge and understanding spring.

The thief on the cross beside Jesus knew only one thing, Jesus is the Messiah, the King of Israel. He didn’t even understand salvation apart from being merely remembered by Jesus. He hadn’t been instructed. He hadn’t been confessed of his sins. He hadn’t been baptized. He hadn’t received the Holy Eucharist. He hadn’t read the bible. He knew no other fact, other than the fact that the Man who hung beside him had ultimate and perfect power to save.

What astonishing faith! Knowing they were all going to be dead very soon, he asks the Man beside him who likewise would be dead, to remember him in His kingdom. For me, what’s happening when a person is joined to Jesus unto the kingdom and life eternal, is exactly the same as what happened with the thief. Everything else that engulfs that moment of saving recognition can be dispensed with, when necessary. Everything can be dispensed with, except that moment.

Posted: at 8-02-2011 12:48 AM (14 years ago) | Newbie
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- Romanos at 8-02-2011 12:48 AM (14 years ago)
(m)
The Lord came, not to do something easy, but to do something true. He came to bring truth and life. By His obedience unto death, He rent from top to bottom the veil of corruption and rebellion that separated us from God, and He opened to us the entrance to the Holy of Holies of freedom and unity. He did not come to unite men among themselves by making light of their differences. He did not come to exhort us to mere "peaceful coexistence." He came to unite us, through Himself, with His Father and our Father. "For through Him we have access in one Spirit to the Father" (Ephesians 2:18).

He did not aim to leave behind Him a group of individuals working well together, for even sinners do this: they cooperate with sinners (cf. Matthew 5:47). He came to give us rebirth and to bring a new unity, one which is trinitarian; to bring a peace which passes all understanding, His own: "My peace I give to you, not as the world gives do I give to you" (John 14:27).

…He came to give Himself, to distribute His flesh: "Take, eat My Body which is broken." He came to give His Spirit: "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22). So He created the little flock of the twelve, the Church. He brought to the world the dynamic force and health of the Trinity, the leaven of the Kingdom which will leaven the three measures which represent the whole of creation (cf. Luke 13:21).

What the world needs is the trinitarian flock, regardless of whether it is small or large. Its greatness is to be found in its trinitarian nature. What man thirsts for is eternity, "even a little part of eternity"; and this is what we have here. To have the character of the Trinity is to be eternal. "This is eternal life, that they know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent" (John 17:3).

Posted: at 8-02-2011 12:48 AM (14 years ago) | Newbie
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- Romanos at 8-02-2011 12:49 AM (14 years ago)
(m)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 1:18 King James Version


θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ο μονογενης υιος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο

This post is about an ikon.


Ikons are painted, two-dimensional images which have been used by the Church for centuries. They say that the first ikons were painted by holy evangelist Luke, using the encaustic method which was contemporarily used to paint images of the dead on their coffin lids in Hellenistic Egypt. This is certainly a possibility. Others like to point at the images painted on the walls of the catacombs and say that those were the first ikons.


If it were a matter of simply painting a picture of Christ, or a saint, the catacomb art might be considered ikons, but they also painted mere symbols there as well. What ikons are considered today is something different. It is said they are written, not painted. They are supposed to depict only what is historically true, though they can mix elements anachronistically in the same ikon. They are meant to be "windows into heaven," and a graphic equivalent of the Bible, which is why they must adhere to very strict rules.


The ikon of the Holy Trinity, the Holy Triad of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is supposed to be depicted only from what is explicitly or implicitly revealed in the Bible. As such, the two most common ikons of the Trinity are (1) the hospitality of Abraham, and (2) the baptism of Christ. In the first, the Triad of angels that visited Abram and Sarai at the oak of Mamre are the Trinity in a mystery. In the second, the baptism of Christ depicts the Triad as the Voice (the Father, sometimes shown by His hand), the Dove (the Spirit) and Christ Himself.


Today, as I was hunting for an ikon of Mark the Evangelist to use in my Greek New Testament blog Η Καινή Διαθήκη, I ran across a Chinese website that had a large selection of ikons, some of which are very unique. Though I did not find the ikon I was searching for, I did find two others that I saved, and I added the site to the Christian Art link list in the side bar, as 正教圣像 Orthodox Ikons. If you go to this site to view the ikons, at the bottom of the page, clicking on a small flower image will take you to the main page with additional links. Everything is in Chinese!


Back to the topic, a certain ikon, in fact, the ikon at the top of this post.


The name of this ikon at the website is Paternitas, which is Latin for Fatherhood, I think. This is actually an ikon of the Holy Triad, but not in the traditional, scriptural form. It really impressed me, nonetheless, and then the word came to me, "the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father." This unusual ikon really is a depiction in visual form of this bible verse, John 1:18. The Dove for the Holy Spirit is borrowed, of course, from the baptism ikon, and the surrounding of seraphim, from the ikon of the vision of holy prophet Isaiah, but everything is still biblical.


One other ikon from the site is a massively detailed ikon of the Resurrection of Christ and His Descent into Hades. It is an excellent example of how an ikon can depict a theological panorama (> Greek, pan = everything, orama = view), provoking questions and suggesting answers, drawing our attention always to the scriptures, and through them by the Holy Spirit's leading, to the living Christ, thus completing the cycle of illumination. An ikon never causes us to stop and stare. A true ikon drives us into the wilderness to seek the Truth.


Yes, I am making a road in the wilderness,
paths in the wilds.
The wild beasts will honour Me,
jackals and ostriches,
because I am putting water in the wilderness,
rivers in the wild,
to give My chosen people drink.
The people I have formed for myself
will sing my praises.
Isaiah 43:19b-21 Jerusalem Bible

Posted: at 8-02-2011 12:49 AM (14 years ago) | Newbie
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- ganster-kid at 9-02-2011 03:43 PM (14 years ago)
(m)
Quote from: cadanre on  7-02-2011 07:18 PM
Quote from: ganster-kid on  7-02-2011 02:41 PM
Quote from: cadanre on 27-01-2011 08:02 PM
You have to understand that quoting the corrupt and absurd Bible written by many unknown people cannot be accepted.


 so that your koran was only written by your mohammed, nawaooo, and he told you to fight and kill ppl that don't believe in that his book and you all believed him, quite amazing Wink Wink Wink

Muhammad did not write the Qur'an. But let me ask you. WHO WROTE THE BIBLE?

 HAHAHAHAHA , MOHAMMED DID NOT WRITE THE KORAN, WHO THEN WROTE IT? TELL ME THE AUTHOR AND I WILL TELL YOU WHO WROTE THE BIBLE , WHAT ARE YOU AVOIDING?
Posted: at 9-02-2011 03:43 PM (14 years ago) | Upcoming
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- cadanre at 12-02-2011 09:34 PM (14 years ago)
(f)
I need not to be told who wrote the bible for I know some of them, while some of them are not known even by the CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS. Many of those who write the bible are not know at all. Do you argue?

Posted: at 12-02-2011 09:34 PM (14 years ago) | Hero
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- ganster-kid at 14-02-2011 03:07 PM (14 years ago)
(m)
Quote from: cadanre on 12-02-2011 09:34 PM
I need not to be told who wrote the bible for I know some of them, while some of them are not known even by the CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS. Many of those who write the bible are not know at all. Do you argue?


 what do you mean not known at all?
Posted: at 14-02-2011 03:07 PM (14 years ago) | Upcoming
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- chik001 at 14-02-2011 08:30 PM (14 years ago)
(m)
Quote from: cadanre on 12-02-2011 09:34 PM
I need not to be told who wrote the bible for I know some of them, while some of them are not known even by the CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS. Many of those who write the bible are not know at all. Do you argue?

...yes I want to argue...
...tell me who wrote the Bible...those you think you know and how you come to know them...
.....
...and I will tell you about how Abu Bakr single handedly instructed...who and who to compile the Harf's Version or translation (or whatever you call it) of  Kuranic texts and destroyed the rest...
...as recorded in The Hadiths...
Posted: at 14-02-2011 08:30 PM (14 years ago) | Gistmaniac
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- morgrawl231 at 8-04-2016 05:37 PM (9 years ago)
(m)
 Roll Eyes
Posted: at 8-04-2016 05:37 PM (9 years ago) | Hero
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