Chief Ebenezer Babatope is a member of the Board of Trustees (BoT) of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) and former Minister of Transport during General Sani Abacha’s regime. In this interview, he says that former Head of State and All Progressives Congress (APC) presidential candidate, Major General Mohammadu Buhari (rtd) is not a match for President Goodluck Jonathan in the February 14, 2015 election. He also speaks on the battle for South-West, former President Olusegun Obasanjo’s new book, ‘My Watch,’ and other burning issues. Read the excerpts below...........
With the conclusion of the primaries of the various political parties, how do you see the process that led to emergence of candidates for February 2015 elections?
It is a good development for our democracy and one is very happy that Nigeria is matching on despite all the difficulties. Now the stage is set; it is going to be a straight fight between President Goodluck Jonathan of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) and Major General Muhammadu Buhari (rtd) of the All Progressives Congress (APC). Nigeria is going to gain a lot for as long all of us playing the game keep to the rules; that is, no violence and allowing the people of Nigeria to have freedom in electing anyone they believe can govern them as president.
Now that the stage is set for Jonathan and Buhari, how do you see the presidential contest?
I am not talking because I am a member of the PDP; I am talking for the fact that in terms of Nigeria’s politics, I thank God that I am one of the experienced people in the country and I can tell you without mincing words that Buhari can never be an electoral match for President Jonathan. Where is he coming from?
He is coming from the angle of being a former military man, not that ex-military men are not good, but politics is a different ball game. And apart from that, Buhari is contending with a man who has done a lot for this country. President Jonathan has governed with the fear of God; he respects the people. He is someone who has held the delicate balance of power in Nigeria and respects at all time, the rights of the people to have freedom. That is why Buhari can never be a match for Jonathan. Buhari is coming from an authoritarian background; he was an authoritarian ruler in this country before. I don’t want to go to the details of what he did but apparently he himself knews what he did. So, he is an uneven match and President Jonathan will win.
Why do you think that Buhari is not a match for Jonathan?
He has every freedom to contest anything he wants to contest but he can never be a match for President Jonathan because there is no way an authoritarian person, who had held authoritarian rule in this country would match a man who is a democrat by all definitions and operates civilian politics to ensure that democracy has a meaning with those civilians who believe that there must be absolute freedom to governance and their fundamental human rights.
But many Nigerians seem not to be satisfied with President Jonathan’s administration and they are yearning for change. Some have even described Buhari as the face of that change.
Which face of change? Buhari, a face of change! I was a victim of Buhari. He kept me in jail for 21 months and so many other people were kept in jail by him as a military ruler of this country. Any person who is involved in national governance must be visionary enough to know what can happen in the future.
When he was Head of State, he ought to have known that he might join civilian frail by saying that he wants to contest for elective position but at the time he ruled this country, he was an absolute ruler and a lot of people perished. I am not accusing him that he did it but many people perished and many politicians died as a result of his dictatorial rule. As I am talking to you, there is a gentleman in Ibadan, who was a member of Bola Ige’s cabinet in Oyo State, Alarape Jolaoso; he lost his two eyes when he was in prison and today he is a blind man. He went to the prison with his two eyes open and came out of Buhari’s prison with his two eyes gone.
What would you tell such person who has remained blind since 1985 to do?
So, there are many people who can make references but again the duty of electing who to rule Nigeria belongs to the Nigerian people.
I saw it all but if I have to recount what happened; to me and others in the prison, there is no way by which you can discuss Buhari’s candidature without delving into his past as a man. I gave a promise to Pastor Tunde Bakare after he preached and appealed to me during one of our meetings at the airport that I should forget the past, that as far as me and Buhari are concerned that is the end of the matter. But it becomes difficult for me now to reframe myself in the face of what I have seen.
My father died when I was in Buhari’s prison and all entreaties to Buhari to allow me as the first born of my father to go and bury my father fell on deaf ears; I was not allowed. So, I was debarred and many things happened to many people. There was one minister then who came from the East; he was released by Buhari’s regime in January 1985 and the third day he died in a motor accident. So, there are many things to write and talk about for Buhari to face and I am sure people are going to face him with a barrage of all these issues and then Nigerians would make up their minds on what to do.
Are you saying Buhari’s past is going to hunt him in 2015 elections?
It is going to hunt him. A man’s past will always hunt a man. And that is why whether you are a Christian or Muslim, you must abide by basic tenets of that religion. Don’t do evil, don’t perpetuate evil and don’t oppress people. Nigerians are freedom loving people; they don’t tolerate authoritarianism. So, apparently whether he likes it or not, he will be hunted by that.
But Buhari is known to be a firm leader and has the required qualities to govern Nigeria.
It is not for me to decide for Nigerian people but when you talk of firm leader, I disagree. All I know is that at one time in the history of this country, the man turned himself against the freedom of Nigerian people, turned against individuals and went haywire destroying many people.
With the successful merger of dominant parties to form the All Progressives Congress (APC), political analysts are of the view that Buhari has upper hand in winning the 2015 presidential election on account that he will have block votes in the North and South-West.
Those who are having such opinions are only deceiving themselves because Nigerians have gone beyond that stage. Anyone who rigidly commits himself to ethnic chauvinism will get himself destroyed.
What is the evidence and proof that Buhari will hold the North?
In 2011, some states in the North voted for him and nobody talked about that and some states voted for President Jonathan. It is going to be a repeat performance in 2015. In 1993, the people of this country sat down and said the late MKO Abiola, who is a Yoruba man should be their president. Even when Abiola went for Muslim-Muslim ticket with Babagana Kingibe as his running mate, the people of this country still voted for him. So, anybody who is talking of ethnicity now is just wasting his time. Talking about how the South- West will vote in 2015, let us wait till then. The Yoruba electorate don’t vote on mere sentiment and emotion. In 2011, Jonathan still won against Nuhu Ribadu, the presidential candidate of the Action Congress of Nigeria (ACN) in the South-West. The only state that voted for Ribadu was Osun; it is not going to be the same now. Just wait for ‘Operation South-West Miracle,’ which will happen.
Don’t you think the emergence of Prof. Yemi Osibajo as running mate to Buhari will boost APC’s chances in the South-West?
I don’t want to talk about Yemi; I know Yemi very well. He is virtually an in-law to me because my blood daughter is married to Prince Adeniyi of Ikene and apart from that, Yemi is also married to Papa Obafemi Awolowo’s granddaughter. But let me be frank with you. At the end of the day Buhari will gnash his teeth that he has made a very terrible mess. Yemi is a nice boy. I knew him as a student while I was Student Affairs Officer at the University of Lagos and I knew him when we were in Abacha’s government when he was a Personal Assistant to Olu Onagoruwa. Yemi is a gentleman, professional of first-class order but it does not count. Pastor Tunde Bakare, a gentleman per excellence and very dynamic, radical and revolutionary was Buhari’s running mate in 2011 and the combination didn’t go anywhere. So, Osibajo’s choice as Buhari’s running mate will not go anywhere in South-West.
Are you insinuating that Osibajo’s choice as Buhari’s running mate will not be of any added advantage to APC in the South-West?
I am not an APC man and I cannot be found attacking Yemi. But I know whatever permutation APC brings with Buhari will fail because Nigerians are people who are politically volatile. You cannot tell Nigerians that this is yes; they will only accept your yes until you have conclusively proved that that yes is yes. So, let us wait. But APC in the last few months has proved to be a democratic party, which can be trusted with power considering the process through which their candidates, especially the presidential candidate emerged without rancour.
Which party is not democratic? Are you saying that the PDP is not democratic?
In the United States and many of the advanced countries of the world, a sitting president is giving a right of first refusal. So, in the PDP, what we did was to give Jonathan the right of first refusal and that is why we don’t have anybody challenging the incumbent president in America in their primaries.
The incumbent president goes along to conduct election. So, which party is not democratic? We followed the whole democratic process in the choice of PDP presidential candidate despite the fact that Goodluck Jonathan has been chosen and agreed to the right of first refusal given to him and he has been chosen, the convention of the PDP still voted yes or no. If you don’t want him you vote, no and yet he still won massively. What APC did is not strange at all; we have been doing it for a long time. So, all parties are democratic and they all have the same credentials for this election. In the final analysis, it is the people of Nigeria that will decide because people and the people alone are the force behind history.
The fallout of the PDP primaries across the country seems to have divided the ruling party ahead of 2015 elections…
There is no party that hasn’t got pockets of opposition within it. There are many silent happenings in the APC and I can assure you that APC will see a lot before the elections. They talk of PDP governors moving to APC, what about APC people who moved to the PDP? Tom Ikimi, Ibrahim Shekarau, Attahiru Bafarawa and many founding members of APC are now members of the PDP. Elections are festival of politicians and we are now involved in our rituals of going to people for elections and we are going to see who is going to win. I believe PDP is going to win.
How confident are you that PDP will win 2015 elections considering the fact that many PDP governors, senators, House of Representatives members are not happy with the outcome of the party’s primaries?
Some of them were defeated by their own men in their constituencies. What do you want the party to do about that? The governors, senators and all those who were defeated should go and sit down because they have been defeated and the emerging forces would now have to put on their mantle for them to also deliver the goods. There are one or two people that I am not happy about what happened to them. I am not happy about what happened to former Oyo State governor, Otunba Adebayo Alao-Akala but then life must continue; politics must continue. Contention within the party must continue and whether you like it or not, one group of politicians at the level of a party must win. As long as we are satisfied that we are doing the job, we are not going to stop or relent in our efforts. We will continue to fight and plan with the people until we achieve victory for the PDP.
Considering the process that threw up President Jonathan as the PDP presidential candidate; why did the party refuse to give the same preferential treatment to serving governors and National Assembly members?
Those contesting against them refused to step down for them. So, there is no way the party can force decision on people who are contesting against them because they went through primaries. It is a pity some of them, very fine hands were pushed out of the Senate but that is politics. Those who are competing with them refused to step down during the primaries. Politics is never rub my back and I rub yours. The party, president, vice president and the PDP national chairman tried their best to ensure that the serving senators got return tickets but on the part of the contesting aspirants, once they had made up their mind there was nothing anybody could do about it. And that is what happened. Even David Mark, the president of the Senate had to pass through primaries.
Is there any plan by the party to reconcile the aggrieved members?
We are doing everything to reconcile those who were aggrieved and at the end of the day, go and take the count, many senators who didn’t go back are going to work with the PDP.
But some of them might play the spoiler role in 2015 elections?
They can never play the spoiler role because they are not God. One must not play God in all these matters. Our God is the omnipotent and omnipresent; He knows how to judge events. We will try our best and we will come out with the best solution for the PDP and Nigeria.
Few hours to the national convention of the PDP and APC, former President Olusegun Obasanjo released a book titled; ‘My Watch’ where he attacked President Goodluck Jonathan, Atiku Abubakar, Bola Tinubu and many other prominent Nigerians.
What is your take on the book coming out a few months to the 2015 general election?
Chief Obasanjo can write anything he wants to. I have not seen the book but I have told myself that if former President Obasanjo once again writes anything about me, I will reply him in three months with a book. He did it before when he attacked me and Papa Awolowo in ‘Not My Will’, I replied him within two and half months with a book; ‘Not his will; the Awolowo-Obasanjo wager’. I am looking forward to Obasanjo’s new book very seriously. If he made mistake of writing about me again, I will reply him in three months in another book and I will write things that Nigerians have never heard before. I respect him as a former Head of State and civilian president.
He can write anything he wants to write about Jonathan. Obasanjo is a free Nigerian citizen and in fact, I praised his intellectualism because it is not many people that are intellectual enough to do that. But when intellectualism is used to advance narrow concept, then it becomes something else. But like I said, he can write anything he likes but if he writes anything about me, I will reply him and I am sure that other people are waiting to write.
Don’t you think there is an ulterior motive about the book considering that it was presented less than three months to the general election?
Chief Obasanjo is not the Nigerian electorate. I want to assure that Nigerian electorate know the facts. They can separate reality from fiction. So, whatever he writes will be subjected to critical analysis by the Nigerian people and once they come to their conclusion, they will use their conclusion to guide their votes. At present, many Nigerians don’t know what Obasanjo wrote in ‘My Watch’ because some people went to court to stop him from publishing the book.
If they had allowed him to circulate the book, I would have had it. I am still making my search to get a copy of that book and once I get a copy, honestly I will devote the whole thing and in two days, I will finish the whole book and I will know what to do. Even if he doesn’t attack me; if he raises issues that bothered on fairness against President Jonathan, who is the flag bearer of my party, of course we will reply him within reasonable bound and within African tradition of respect for age, maturity and experience. We will not be rude to him.
In the last few months, different politicians and prominent Nigerians have been visiting Obasanjo, seeking for his support for 2015. President Jonathan was also not left out in currying support in next year’s election. How do you see the development?
Why would the president not look for his favour? Whether you like it or not, it is only a mad man who will not look for Obasanjo’s favour. He was at the helm of affairs of Nigeria for two times; he was Head of State and also civilian President. So, if Jonathan is looking for his favour, it is right to do so because Obasanjo has become an institution. But again, if he misuses that opportunity, it will boomerang in his face in a very bad manner and he himself will regret it.
Is PDP really comfortable with Obasanjo’s romance with the APC leaders?
He still says he is a PDP member and we are waiting for him to come out to say I am no longer in PDP. When he does that, of course the issues are clear and we have to join issues with him. We will go to the field and put him among those we are going to contend with and we will raise all the point we should raise to ensure that Nigerian people are properly guided about what he is and what he has been and what he could be tomorrow.
Do you think it would be easy for Jonathan and the PDP to turn against Obasanjo, considering how he is sending emissaries to the former President to curry his favour for his re-election in 2015?
How are you sure that those that went to Obasanjo were emissaries sent by President Jonathan. David Mark was in the army with Obasanjo, so why is it wrong for Mark to visit him? Governor Sule Lamido of Jigawa State was a Minister of Foreign Affairs under Obasanjo. Many people would have gone to Obasanjo using their personal connection with him. So, how are you sure that they are emissaries sent by President Jonathan? Even though, if they are emissaries sent by Jonathan, it is good because you cannot close your eyes to a man like Obasanjo. Obasanjo has something going for him; he has tremendous native intelligence. Even his enemies must accept that. But within the bound of that native intelligence, if he misuses his native intelligence, we shall tell him that there are other people too who have that native intelligence.
Many people believe that the 2015 presidential election is going to be a contest between PDP and APC, a likely repeat of the June 12, 1993 presidential election between the Social Democratic Party (SDP) and the National Republican Convention (NRC). Do you subscribe to that?
Forget about the 1993 presidential election. It is in a class of its own but next year’s election is a different ball game. The noise making of the APC is terrible and I praised them for choosing Lai Mohammed for managing their publicity. He is one of the best we can get in this country. In a book written by Lai Mohammed, I wrote something in the book and I acclaimed that he is an intelligent person. But overall, APC is a noise making political machine and it is that machine that will destroy them.
What do you mean by that?
They will overdo the job and Nigerian people are going to get them easily but we of the PDP will contend with them in every field of the game; bring out our own opinion and tell the world that Nigerians didn’t make a mistake by voting for the PDP in the past.
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